yes and i think telling people they might have did and asking them to do research is form of persuasion even if unintended
2:42 PM
but also description of what mental disorder is from dsm:
Must not be merely an expected response to common stressors and losses (ex. the loss of a loved one) or a culturally sanctioned response to a particular event (ex. trance states in religious rituals)
Indeed. I would also still probably class tulpamancy under that. There may be no intent of malice or direct manipulation, but structurally speaking I'm sure others have looked upon the tulpamancy and concluded "Cult" before. Ultimately tulpamancy is a prolonged and intensive persuasion of the self and by others through guides and what not.
I think what they're getting at with the religion specifier there is that usually religions are very clearly still controlling the response and it's not an uncontrolled mechanism - akin to tulpamancy in that regard.
2:45 PM
If you achieve a dissociative trance through meditation or a spirit quest or whatever it doesn't really mean that's going to stick around, unless you're taught it will - but that's OSDD-2, again.
There was one time someone asked about tulpamancy being a cult, and we explained that's you're allowed to leave the tulpa community, you're allowed to share your negative opinions about tulpas, and you don't have to join. I also explained I would rather not teach someone to make a tulpa if they're unsure about tulpa creation.
Tulpamancy checks some of the other boxes- deviant practice, obscure internet meme, more or less a smaller group of people thay regularly meet, etc. I'm not sure who the leader is, maybe your tulpa? Pleeb may own the Tulpa.info Discord / Forum but he's not running around forcing people to meditate. I'm not running around threatening anyone to make tulpas.
As for the OSDD/DID community, I don't know if it's a cult but I do know it checks more boxes. I think it's either you're disordered or out and you can't criticize the set up. The biggest question I have is if there's a leader. Maybe DissociaDID for some time but I don't think they go around forcing people to claim they have DID.(edited)
Can it be said that all cults have leaders? I know that's historically extremely common due to the way they're structured in the individual-cult sense... but that may fail to recognize that multiple cults can exist with the same religious framework. Multiple Roman Mystery Cults existed, broadly with similar beliefs, where the emphasis was indeed on the belief, rather than the leadership. Is an egalitarian witch coven not also a cult in the technical sense?
2:56 PM
Cult is just a loaded word these days if you ask me. It's actually an extremely broad word that applies to a heck of a lot of things but no one wants to acknowledge it.
I should clarify I'm referring to the concept of a "bad cult", not a general cult. Tulpamancy is absolutely a cult under the general definition.
I could be wrong, I assumed having a charismatic leader was one of the key ingredients. There was something someone else posted, I'm going to go look for it.
do be fair as much as i liked dissociadid and i found some of the things they were talking about helpful there were also unhealthy things they were doing that could be considered brainwashing and cultish(edited)
interesting that tulpamancy can be transleted to
"divination by means of tulpa"
divination - the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.
squints
You know I was against the whole -mancy thing because I was under the impression it was future based...
But part of the process of tulpamancy is totally about prodding the unknown with your tulpa's perspective and just acquiring responses.
3:04 PM
It might actually make grammatical sense.
3:05 PM
I still hate the mashing of a bastardized tibetan word and a greek one though
3:05 PM
That's heresy.
3:05 PM
Of course I think the greek equivalent word is daemon so that would result in misunderstandings
"the practice of seeking knowledge of the the unknown by supernatural means."
3:08 PM
ohhh i was going to suggest to change tulpamancy into something else, like tulping, and then i realised that's how people are calling it in our native language
I have seen several attempts and failures to replace tulpamancy, at this point I feel like embracing it is my only option.
Hell, I can't stop being entertained by the idea of going around telling people I'm a wizard when they'll think I'm the magical type
3:11 PM
I don't think tulpamancers achieve anything supernatural per say, just out of the ordinary
3:11 PM
Disintegrating a brick wall with your mind- that would be supernatural. Hallucinating a pony, that's called something else.
Any sufficiently advanced technologically is indistinguishable from magic and vice versa. Imagine if we started hiding our knowledge and succeeded, then formed an actual cult around protecting and sharing that knowledge only with "the worthy". Everyone else would totally presume we were wizards until they became initiated into the deeper secret that we're psychology nerds.
I’ve done a decent amount of research into cults because i wanted to write something including it. To my knowledge both groups DO NOT fit into the definition of a cult
4:15 PM
You need to go down the list of something I remember being called the BITE model but I haven’t looked at it in ages
Indeed, that's what is referenced above. I was largely pointing out that the layman use of the term does not actually mean that. It just means a small religious group in essence.
4:20 PM
Even historically. When I think of cult I think of the mystery cults, hermetic orders, stuff like that. The modern definition of a coercive personality-driven cult is exactly that. Modern.
Zen, do you know the special term for the understanding of a modern cult? I swear in an article I read somewhere one was given, maybe the "How Stuff Works" article on cults?
In this article, we'll separate fact from propaganda and learn what a cult actually is, see what practices characterize a destructive cult and investigate some of the more notable cult incidents in recent history.
Yeah I mean I would think if tulpamancy fits the definition of a cult, anything would, lol. Especially with half the community effectively being like, "you don't want any part of this bub, get out while you still can".
Zen, do you know the special term for the understanding of a modern cult? I swear in an article I read somewhere one was given, maybe the "How Stuff Works" article on cults?
In modern English, a cult is a social group that is defined by its unusual religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs, or by its common interest in a particular personality, object, or goal. This sense of the term is controversial, having divergent definitions both in popular culture and academia, and has also been an ongoing source of conte...
I do think "destructive cults" totally need their own particular name. They're clearly their own sociological phenomenon.
4:47 PM
But alas, language cares not what I think.
4:49 PM
And yes, all religions were at some point cults. After a certain point I think the cults are better defined as "sects" though, if they have enough of a cohesive narrative between them. But then we're getting into a weird semantic place where there's not much clear definition to anything and it doesn't really matter.(edited)
In modern English, a cult is a social group that is defined by its unusual religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs, or by its common interest in a particular personality, object, or goal.
This is the wiki definition. And yes it's extremely broad. But it definitely fits tulpamancy.
Also here's an important distinction I feel it's important to remember: Tulpamancy in its current state is an experiential field with little to do with empirical science. There are several ways to view tulpamancy, but all of them have some pretty major presumptions, even the ones that state tulpamancy is just an illusion has things to say about the mind not being able to house multiple identities. None of this is really grounded in science, which only looks at what is observable. We need real studies, and a whole lot of brain scans of tulpamancers, basically, before we can really say anything concrete. Until then, we're a group who is practicing something essentially on faith and experience, like every cult before us.
I actually think that tulpamancy is closer to a historical cult like the mithraic mystery cults than a "destructive cult" is associated with those practices.(edited)
6:11 PM
We're more of a cult in that sense than any compound being run by some abusive narcissist.
I do understand the "fun" of identifying with cults but it isn't something to be taken likely (in the modern sense I mean); it'd be nice if there was some word to separate historical cults from modern cults, but as it is I'd be wary about labeling innocent communities as cults; people are desensitized enough to the word as is
9:35 PM
I saw a post recently explaining how following historical trends, Gen Z is more prone to falling into cults than other generations, so it's something I try to be wary of
kialessa:
aleatoryw:
chazymandias:
kittykatninja321:
My hypothesis is that in like 10 years gen z is gonna have a big cult boom the way the boomers did in the 70s
It’s already happening on tik tok. There’s a fun new thing going round that’s citing common symptoms of depression and anxiety as signs you’re about to have your awaken...
Im not entirely sure that brain scans can in themselves prove tulpas any more than they can prove consciousness exists. They can demonstrate that something is taking place, neurochemical activity, but nothing about the experience of consciousness itself or even what it is. The very fact that we are plural by being billions of individual cells functioning together, modular and also distinct, to give a singular mind is somewhat unfathomable in itself. If science could point at one particular cell itself and call it "the conscious cell" then it might have a point, however it is extremely unlikely.
Empirical science can explain the mechanics and in some great part develop medicines and techniques that influence the physical structure of the brain or influence our conscious state, but the experience of who i am remains somewhat illusive, an effect of numerous different processes from electrochemical to quantum collapses across such a broad area.
Maybe there will be a way to prove it. However i doubt current scanning technology would reveal anything conclusive. It would be a revelation for empirical evidence supporting consciousness as a thing unto itself.
9:52 AM
In part there would have to be an understanding of what consciousness is before it could be tested or looked for. There are so many different notions and a lack of consensus surrounding it that fall short, often its like describing an elephant by touching its tail.
why would anyone need prove of tulpas in the first place? i don't get it
11:06 AM
do you need a scientific proof that it is possible to feel your experience is valid? or so you can show to your friend that it's possible? cool, but one research will not show that you have a "real tulpa"
11:07 AM
instead of waiting for some mri results which might not even be able to prove anything like obsidian is saying, you might want to work on your insecurity about the experience, since you might need to do it after you get the results anyway
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But, it is very much the kind Scarlet likes, lol.
